Monday, March 27, 2006


NOTICE that the arguments of the flunkies of the Establishment Overdogs who'll be reading at Miller Hall April 17th don't attempt to put forth the rightness of their positions, the talent of their words and voices, or the justice of their cause. Like aristocrats of days past they argue from their own weakness. "Leave us alone!" they plead. "We're fragile personalities of delicate health!"

To which I respond: Abdicate.

I'm sure they have nice health plans, these tenured profs, while for myself as for so many Americans (for so many ULAers), if I get sick, I die. Shinder, Lopate, Doty, and Moody have it many times easier than most of us. If they can't survive their lives, how would they survive ours?

If they're really so weak, they should abdicate.

Because we've targeted the Poster Boy of Corruption in our arguments, we're said to have "personal" grudges, when our fight is about the System of Literature and those it puts in charge.


Poster Boy travels with a phalanx of security. Columbia, supposed icon of anti-censorship, is flooded with guards to protect the professors and children of affluence. They tell us their guards are even more broke and hungry than we are! Who pays them? Who runs this society? Aren't the leaders graduates of Ivy League temples of privilege like Columbia? Didn't they create this world? Isn't Poster Boy's money-center banker father one of the rulers of the globe? Let's add to our protest a protest at the impoverished conditions of the aristocrats' guards!


We're told Doty and Lopate don't even like Ginsberg's writing. They'll be on stage regardless. Their towers of privilege are scams, their poetry is a fraud. They don't deserve their lofty station and know it. Their only surprise at our outcry is that it took so long. Their art is decrepit, roadblock to renewal, unable to connect with the populace. Their poetry academy with $150 admission fee protects not the nation's best poetry but its worst. We're here to denounce their bastions and barriers of inequity and falsehood.



True that said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
True that said...

And of course I'm not defending the talent of those poets. Why would I? I'm not going to their reading. I have nothing to do with Columbia or those poets. You assume the people who think you're a fool must be working for your enemies, because you can't admit the possibility that you are, in fact, a fool. But I don't work for your enemies. I just think you're a jerk. And I feel like saying so. You're a jerk.

The reading sounds boring. So what? Most readings are boring. Some are great. If your readings are anything like your blog, they'd be insufferable.

But boring doesn't equal unjust. These people aren't doing anything to you. Your vitriol is totally baffling, and the fact that you seem to think it justifies your hateful attacks is insane. Petty jealousy and rage don't become cute or noble just because you put them in a moronic poem.

There, I said it.

- Leopold said...

Again, Ad Hominem attacks by an anonymice completely ignoring the argument. There, you said nothing.

True that said...

Ignoring what argument? King insults people, lies, claims to be victimized by a conspiracy of powerful forces, and then claims that this imaginary conspiracy he percieves proves him right. That's not called argument anywhere but in the ULA locker room. Then I called him a jerk.

Do you believe there's an argument somewhere in all of your King's grandstanding?

This isn't the Lincoln-Douglas debates. It's a shitty, angry, hateful blog. You guys aren't talking about anything, you're just playing a little game where you pretend to be revolutionaries.

You seem to enjoy it, I'm just calling you on it. You don't have to stop or anything. But I don't think my comments would bother you if you didn't know I was right.

As Jeff Potter so colloquially put it, "Know thyself - what else is there, baby?"

- Leopold said...

So you agree that Moody, Lopate et al are proper representatives of the beat movement and should be the ones paid to host and associate their work with the anniversary of Howl.

That's the argument, even if you don't like how KW approaches it, how he says it, that's the argument and there has yet to be any reasoned reply to it. Just the same old 'you guys are jerks, you guys are jealous, you guys are delusional' over and over like a broken record.

You're comments don't bother me, because they are empty. Not only that, but you don't even have enough guts to put your name behind the ineffectual puffs of air you DO manage to force out. You call the blog hateful when you come on to call the poster a jerk. And frankly, I'm not even convinced that you developed that opinion on your own.

True that said...

Of course I don't think the Columbia poets are "proper representatives of the beat movement," but I also don't think they ever claimed to be. You're just repeating stuff that King made up. They're just having a reading to celebrate a book they love. I also doubt they're getting paid for reading, although I think that's your fabrication, not King's. But if Columbia wants to pay them, that's up to them. It is a private institution.

As far as I'm concerned, everyone's free to celebrate Howl how they see fit. If you don't like their party, throw your own. Invite the poets you think are appropriate - Blackolive or whoever. That's what Ginsberg would have done. He certainly wouldn't be bitching about not getting invited to the fancy party. If your party's more fun, then hell, have fun! I mean how could it be less fun than a reading at Columbia?

But why turn it into a challnge or a contest, unless to staisy your collective sense of inferiority? Or to justify your persecution complex? Columbia never claimed to be the only official celebration of the anniversary. Their reading isn't aimed against you. That's King's paranoia, and you're just parrotting it. Becuase the ULA's only claim to fame is that no one gives a fuck about it. So you all pretend that you're not being ignored - you're being excluded! Ha! Everyone's not oblivious to your existence, they're scared! That proves that you hold all the cards, doesn't it?

Do you imagine that you're the "proper representatives of the beat moevement"? With your weak poems and your angry blogs? Maybe if you just keep saying it, keep getting nastier and nastier in your attacks, you'll get to be even more like Ginsberg. Maybe people will forget you've got no work to back it up. Good luck.

- Leopold said...

Gee, you think Colombia will let us host our party in their hall, invite all the lit classes, give us the proceeds from tickets, announce it in the newspapers so it'll be covered by the book feature writers? That'd be swell!

Check out the People v. Litquake ULA from two weeks ago. They were just trying to host a little part of their own too, with actual people who could be considered beats. Here's the link:

True that said...

Well, I think Leopold, if that's even your name, you've proved my point about the ULA much more clearly than I ever could. Your "argument" isn't about more properly honoring the legacy of the beats, it's about getting your piece of the pie - a fancy hall for your reading, a captive audience, some money in your pocket, and your name in the paper. Just like all the other fuckers.

When I said throw your own party, I meant throw your own party. If you think it's censorship that not everyone can read AT COLUMBIA, then no wonder you feel so oppressed. Do you think the Ramones sat around complaining that they weren't invited to play at Lincoln Center? No, they played CBGB's and pretty soon everyone wanted to be there.

I don't know what Nicosia's gripe is. From what I can tell, he had his reading and it was much better than the other one. Who gives a fuck about the SF Chronicle? Are you guys writers or marketing execs?

This just shows what the ULA really wants. Not a revolution, but the status quo with different people in the places of privilege. Which is fine, but don't pretend you're out for the little guy. You're out for yourselves, grabbing publicity and hoping for money you didn't earn, the same as all the people you spit at. Hypocrites, every one of you.

King said...

First, we ARE the little guy.
Second, your posts are tending to contradict themselves. Earlier, on my previous post, you mock us for having no influence. Now you attack us for making the noise necessary to have an impact in this noisy world.
Our task is not just to expose corruption in the literary world-- as we've done, and which people like you close your eyes to.
It's also to get attention to underground writers-- to the cause of underground writers.
We make noise anyway we can! The alternative is to be shut out-- permanently shut out-- in this allegedly "democratic" society which isn't democratic at all.
But what's your stake in this? Obviously you have one, or you wouldn't be so worked up.
Take off the mask and let us know who you are.I've been very patient in letting you have your say. Is that it? Anything else?
Re: the Miller Hall reading. I don't know anything about them getting paid-- but they are paid by the literary system now in place to represent American literature today; supposedly the "best of the best." Even you admit they're doing a poor job of it.
I came into this debate fifteen years ago as an outsider, when I scanned through lit journals and said, "Is this it? Is that all there is?"
The fact is that these characters are frauds-- which is why they would never debate us or read against us. (The Paris Review did in 2001-- amd have hid the video of the event ever since, because their attempts at argument were ripped to shreds.)
The association with Howl by them is made BY THEM. They're drawing the connection. It's laughable, which is what we're pointing out.

King said...

(p.s. It's funny how demi-puppets deny that there are even such things as hierarchies in this stratified society. There are, in literature as elsewhere. It's easily documented that a relatively small class of poets and writers get the vast bulk of available resources, and more important, institutional support, as exhibited with this event. Institutions lead to the stagnation of art. We oppose this.)

King said...

Re "conspiracy." Who has used that word except you?
Would you call the election of George W Bush a conspiracy? I don't. It's simply the way things are. A sliver of the society gets 90% of the power.
Is it a conspiracy that 9 of the last 10 major party presidential candidates were grads of Harvard or Yale, or both? Hmm. What does that look like to you? Any thoughts?
It can be defined by a better word than conspiracy-- I use aristocracy.
Do you really believe this same situation does not exist in the worlds of literature and major media?
Aren't the overwhelming majority of editors on major mag mastheads-- existing organs of publicity for writers-- Ivy League grads? Maybe all of them in some cases-- when one excludes the presence on the staffs of upper-class Brits.
The 3rd issue of n+1-- a "legitimate" lit journal, hardly a proponent of the ULA-- contained an article documneting the token, almost miniscule presence of the bottom two-thirds of society at this nation's most prestigious universities. Are they conspiracy theorists also?
Columbia, in the real world, isn't just any school. It's a power center whose grads go on to hold power positions in politics, media, and literature. It's one of the major centers of intellectual debate in this country-- approved debate that is. When we focus our arguments upon it, we're focusing at the very heart of the beast.
Who can deny this?

King said...

Regarding our anonymous poster:
I've re-examined your argument. it seems to consist of this:
Yes, the posers at Miller Hall aren't very relevant or good. You take issue with our taking issue with THEM.
You're apathetic about them-- totally apathetic-- but not about us.
Does this make sense?
Every corrupt system or bureaucracy, from the French aristocrats to the Soviet Union, survived because the bulk of the population are sheep. Don't make noise! (As soon as someone did, the corrupt systems collapsed.)
Should we be apathetic about literature? Should we be apathetic about the world we live in-- or blindly accept it, as would an ant, or an amoeba?
I'm not. Reading became very important to me at an early age. It rescued me from the muck and violence of the city I then lived in. I hate to see it continually trashed by fakes. I've sought to speak about this.
You want documentation of our case?
I provided it in 45 issues of New Philistine through the 1990's. Gee, do you think a conglom will publish them in a book? I think rather not!
(Even though my paying subscribers included many of the most lauded young writers of the day.)
One of the issues was publicly destroyed by a colleague of Jason Shinder's at Bennington College, of all places. (I wasn't there, but received three notes from well-known writers who were there about the incident.) The issue discussed the incestuous relationship which existed between AWP and the NEA at the time-- embarrassing stuff.
Now groups like Foetry are carrying the anti-corruption ball. Are they conspiracy theorists also?
You sound like an O.J. fan, who would still believe his innocence even if caught on video-cam!
I'll make here a point I made on Foetry-- that the ULA is not just about debate. We're also about action-- the action required to build an alternative literature, which is what we're doing. Now excuse me, I have work to do.
-Karl "King" Wenclas, ULA, Philadelphia Chapter.

King said...

Oops: one last comment.
Where's the hate in our Challenge?
We'd love to meet these guys as brothers in literature, and read against them, and have a beer afterward.
The hate is on their side-- a refusal to throw over their exclusive club; to acknowledge the existence of writers who live outside their world and who don't play by their rules.

True that said...

What you don't seem to understand is that the Columbia reading has nothing to do with literature - it is, like you say, just a club of privilege. And your self-deluded challenge to it has nothing to do with literature either. Your half-baked rambling about george bush and elite universities and power centers just prove this. You hate people who have what you want. Okay, point noted.

You can rail all you want against the people you hate. Write bad poems insulting them,whatever. But don't pretend it has anything to do with Ginsberg or the beats. Don't pretend you're helping struggling writers. That's just you posing, pretending you're supporting art when you're just another politician.

As for whether or not I think you have any power, let me be clear - we agree. You have none. The ULA does nothing but insult people. Then you ask totally disingenuous questions like "Where's the hate in our Challenge?" Well, "fake show-dog pets", "careerist bureaucrats", "fake bohmian" for starters. And we both know that's not even the tip of all the scummy lies you've posted about writers who are just doing their thing. But of course you're just brothers in literature, right?

I guess I just hate liars. If the people on stage at Columbia are a bit haughty and soporific, at least they won't make any bones about what they're doing. They're writers furthering their careers, celebrating a book that's been important to them, getting some exposure while they're at it. You're the dissembling, twisted, full-of-shit one. If the great achievement of the ULA is to make me post on a dumb blog, awaken me to how much I detest self-important grandstanding fakes who manipulate their lobotomized minions into thinking they're furthering the cause of literature while actually exploiting the work of the great dead, hell, good work.

Patrick @ LitVision said...

"True That," you say "I guess I just hate liars." Then why do you hide your identity under fake handles? You sound kinda familiar...

Against your point, "the Columbia reading has nothing to do with literature," i say WHY NOT? Shouldn't the self-proclaimed 50th anniversary of HOWL celebration have something to do with literature?? Was Ginsberg's HOWL written and presented to further his career, or did it have social and literary significance?

Smerdyakov said...

"You hate people who have what you want."

That is so fucking dumb I can't stand it. That is so dumb, so fucking dumb.

I wonder if during Nat Turner's Rebellion if any of the slave masters yelled, "You're just jealous."

True that said...

You guys are not Nat Turner. No one has enslaved you. If you don't realize that the comparison isn't just offensive but totally ridiculous, then you deserve to follow a fool like your King.

He does the same thing - imagines he's being oppressed when he's just being ignored. If your work is good, people will positively flock to it, because readers desperately want to read the good shit and there's not much of it around. That's how the beats did it, by writing and hustling and supporting one another. Not by begging for the largesse of Big Brother and broadcasting their shock! when fame wasn't handed to them on a gilded plate.

The reason a reading at Columbia isn't about literature is because Columbia is an enormous institution flooded with government and corporate money and has its own interests at heart. That's why they can only celebrate a book like Howl 50 years after it was written. Only idiots would expect anything different from a place like that - and those idiots seem to include both the Columbia powers-that-be and the ULA. Flip sides of the exact same coin, like I've been saying. Politicians, whores for the attention of fools. Fuckers all.

If people are going to keep responding to my posts, could they please come up with something a little more intelligent? This is getting boring.

Smerdyakov said...

I just think that phrase is stupid, that "what are you jealous" phrase.

Jeff Potter said...

T: "If your work is good, people will positively flock to it, because readers desperately want to read the good shit and there's not much of it around. That's how the beats did it, by writing and hustling and supporting one another. Not by begging for the largesse of Big Brother and broadcasting their shock!"

T, you're naive.

If work is good AND READERS FIND OUT ABOUT IT they'll read it.

How do readers find out about good work from writers outside of the machine? Hello? Any examples? Can you get there from here?

I think you could add PROTEST to your list of things the Beats did or would do. Making NOISE.

We make noise about our work and we make noise to challenge the lameness of what the machine gets up to.

We're not begging largesse. We show what's going on and obviously everyone is then free to do what they do.

Let a millionaire take an NEA grant now.

Our noise has made people consider alternatives they hadn't before. Our rabblerousing has gotten attention for our underdog writers and has provoked unrivaled questioning of the behavior of the literary machine.

We haven't gotten all that far yet, but we have done some cool things. And we've done it on pennies. We go for it as best we can. We've already called the literati on things that they'd been getting away with for years, and we've gotten response.

We do have writing already available that's better than theirs. We'll work to make it more available and get more attention for it.

T, your "you-guys-are-just-like-them" thing is so old. Like them in that we take NEA grants even though we're millionaires? Like them in that we give big cash prizes to our pals while not bothering even reading the rest of the entries? Like them in our $1000 table dinners? Like them in that we write about our hard times when we really haven't had them? Like them in that we use fake names? Like them in that we exclude our personal lives from our work because our jerkiness doesn't matter compared to the perfectness of our style? Like them in that irony is everything in our work? Give it a rest, T. You've been going on about this for almost a year now.

This anonymous thing is darn funny. Remember the first one of them who got unmasked on Amazon? Man, THAT was funny! I bet that still stings. No one wants to be the first to screw up while hassling a bunch of nobodies like us. Ouch. Can you imagine? The INDIGNITY of it all---getting caught out being all paranoid and stalkery like that. The rest don't matter. The first sets the tone. (Ouch.)

Jeff Potter said...

Once more for good measure...

T: "That's how the beats did it, by writing and hustling and supporting one another. Not by begging for the largesse of Big Brother and broadcasting their shock!"

...Control issues is it, T?

I don't think the Beats need you to tell them how they'd do things. Why do you try to put words in their mouths? Actually, your litany sounds about right in a vague, naive way. I could see them broadcasting all kinds of shock. Anyway, that's what we're doing, too: we're writing, hustling and supporting each other. Just not the way you'd like. But I notice you haven't had any better suggestions, other than "hold your own readings" and the people will magnetically flow to our writing if it's good. But, no, we're just not letting anyone be the boss of us, especially someone who just wants to be in control, without adding anything. No initiative, no nerve of their own. Anything wild and willynilly just makes 'im scream and run, doesn't it. Precious. T, you seem a little clingy. Just let it go.

True that said...

Readers find good work one way or another, and they don't need the San Francisco Chronicle, the NY Times Book Review, or Columbia University to do it. The beats changed the literary world without any of those assholes and so did everyone else who matters. The gatekeepers of institutional culture always catch on last. So, apparently, does the ULA.

Do you think Entertainment Tonight had to tell people to go to Hank Williams concerts? Was Poets & Writers telling everyone to look forward to the "great new book from Malcolm Lowry"? How did people find out about R. Crumb? James Joyce? The Sex Pistols? They heard from their friends, their coworkers, or they discovered them themselves.

And maybe you are right that you're not exactly like the people you criticize. The ULA is worse. You're more obsessed with money to the exclusion of all else, with whose daddy does what, with who's a millionaire and who's not, with who won what award, with what's going on at Columbia University. That's all that goes on on this site. Following the horse race of who's ahead and by how much. Nothing about good new work. "Yours" or "Theirs". Ever. No thinking about writing. No excitement about what it can do. Just pissing on people your little club hates. At least at those $1000 a plate charity dinners you might get to hear some poems or stories. Not here.

You think you can do all this with impunity, you pretend that just because you haven't been granted the success you're sure you deserve (for what, I wonder) you can freely lie and degrade writers who, whether you like their stuff or not, are at least actually putting work out in the world. Poor us, the world is crushing us, we have no power so we don't have to take any responsibility for the hate we spew. But these things do have their effects. It's clearly already poisoned your thinking and your personalities, and is probably responsible for the dearth of ULA work worth celebrating.

Like I said, explaining this shit to you one by one is getting mad boring. When I asked for some more intelligent arguments, I certainly didn't mean drivel from Jeff Potter. Come on now.

Jeff Potter said...

T, you have quite the interest in psychoanalysis and inner judgement and verdict-making. Scary to think of how you put it to use.

But, hey, we have a bone to pick with the boss-lads in the building, so why not just let us see if we can stir something up? We're pushing for debate, for reaction---to provoke them into further outreach, into doing something/anything new. Let them surprise us (or anyone) for a change. Nothing will happen if no one pushes.

Do you have some stake in this or something? Doubtful. You seem to be just casting about. Why don't you go try to go make a little impact of your own somewhere and report back to us how you do. --It can even be from down at the bar or with your girlfriend. We're here to listen.

True that said...

Hell, I'm not saying don't protest at Columbia. I hope you do. And I hope there's plenty of pushing. The meeting of the right-wing Columbia fascists and the left-wing pseudo-revolutionary ULA fascists might create a rift in the space-time continuum that will destroy you all and clear a little breathing room for actual writers.

Really, go ahead. Get your names in the papers. Wow. I'm just saying your challenge is pathetic, and it's a shame that you're exploiting Howl for your own egotistical ends the same way Columbia is. You say it yourself: "we're pushing for debate, reaction - to provoke them..." I'd say you're begging for a reaction, and that's the sad thing. Some revolutionaries. You sound like fourth graders. But go ahead.

As for your ad hominem attacks, where's leopold and all the principled defenders of honest debate now? Typical of people who don't actually believe in anything other than following the herd they're in, principles go out the window when they don't serve your purposes. I have yet to see any (current) ULA member so much as disagree with another, and I doubt any rift in the groupthink is forthcoming. How wild and willynilly of all you fearless truthtellers.

But since you're all so desperate to know a little about me, I'll just say this: Jeff, don't assume (and it's very clear what you're assuming) that I'm a boy just because I'm a dozen times smarter than you are. Hell, there are chain-link fences a dozen times smarter than you.

chilly charlie said...

Oh, dear, about that 'True that' fellow.

"Self deluded." "Attacks." "Victimized." "Persecution complex." "Scummy lies." "Self-important grandstanding." "Lobotomized minions." "Fearless truthtellers." "Left wing pseudo-revolutionaries." "Egotistical."Obsessed." "Petty jealousy and rage don't become cute or noble..."

All the faux colloquialisms in the world can't mask THAT sophomoric and pseudo-diagnostic voice. Yes, indeed, Patrick, that voice sounds very familiar. All that's missing is "bully" and "narcissist."

Purely my own opinion, of course. But I think I know EXACTLY who this pain in the butt is.

Let me say it again: I'm not ULA material, but I say GIVE 'EM HELL!

And dearest T., let me suggest you take some of your own advice: "These people aren't doing anything to you. Your vitriol is totally baffling, and the fact that you seem to think it justifies your hateful attacks is insane."

You're still TRANSPARENT, demi-puppet!

True that said...

Ah, if only I could take my own advice. But I appreciate the suggestion, chilly charlie. You make a good point.

And if I've shown myself to be as useless and as annoying as you all say (over and over and over) then chilly charlie seems to suggest an analogy:

True that is to the ULA as the ULA is to... think you guys can get this one? Think about it and get back to me.

Jeff Potter said...

T., to once again explain it in case anyone else is out there wondering:

*We work together to amplify our voices. Where we disagree we tend to keep it to ourselves and do our own things. Where we can help each other, we do. In this way, readers, writers, and publishers who previously had no voice (no matter their merit) who have no cash, credential (beyond the street) or backing, can finally be heard. We're outward looking and working. The modern impulse to fixate interiorly obviously sends people like you, T., into truly useless tizzies.

*We challenge our enemies to get reactions, sure, but why would someone be so stuck in an interior rut as to think that's our endpoint? (Kids today get so narrow.) We use reactions to shed light on the underground. Our noise provokes the public to wake up to whole categories of literature that have been overlooked, such as folk-writing and zining. Editor Gottleib said there were no undiscovered geniuses in the hinterlands. We keep putting the spotlight back on that. I think Ginsberg (his early cohorts for sure) would've seen the difference.

*What's this obsession on smarts and gender? Has cleverness and PC helped your paralysis any, T.? That's kidsplay. There's a lot more to life, and to quality. This paralyzed obsession is common among MFAers. Not among active, thriving zinesters who know that all our faculties are needed, not just brains alone (ask Henry Miller) and certainly not brains frozen inwardly in a grimace of analysis, cleverness, irony and bitterness. No one wants to read that. Goes nowhere. Does nothing. Except nag.

*The blindness of the interior approach is amazing. It's part of what's led Lit into today's deadend. T declares himself to be useless and hints that because we face huge odds that we're useless, too. He discounts the effects of DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Of joining together. Of publicly standing up for what one believes in. Of holding events in all kinds of unlikely, even hostile, places. He conveniently misses all that. The thing is that we've already made a difference. Our method works. To get downtrodden talent some of the respect it deserves. We'll keep pressing on. Learning as we go. Not stuck wallowing in lame interior analysis.

King said...

"False" knows little about the ULA (if you knew me you'd know I have little interest in money or material possessions) ands equally little about history, beyond what he gets from media brainwashing.
Nice Hank Williams example-- but the truth is that most c&w ("Hillbilly music" at the time) as well as blues singers were scorned by the general culture. This is an entire essay in itself. It took the explosion of Elvis to truly break roots music into the mainstream. B.B. King was singing on streetcorners!
The Beats were very publicity conscious.
It's no wonder you hide your identity. Your arguments aren't very good-- they merely show your own resentment, at us, for making the noise, taking the stand, you wish you were capable of. But you're not.
You can't even tell us who you are!
Why do we dare posit ourselves as the true inheritors of the Beats?
Because we're the only non-sheep in the lit-world today.
Because we're doing it-- taking a stand against the fakes, which no one else will.
The Gallic warrior was asked by various chieftans by what right he put himself forward as the leader of rebellion against the imperialist Romans? He replied, the right that he was doing it!
Our energy and our enthusiasm for literature is our right, which the System-approved fakers don't have. They're tired priests going through the motions, practicing the rituals of a religion in which they no longer believe.
The Miller Hall affair will be a tired ritual. I've seen dozens of them. Enough! Time to put the enervated sideshow which established literature has become to sleep and start over.
We're literary insurgents-- yet we give more accountability than the mandarins, who are subject to no accountability at all. I've answered questions about the ULA in open forum after open forum. The criticisms have all been made, questions asked and answered. At least bring something new to the table, "False," or I'll shut the ghost that you are off. (And other ghosts like Charlie along with you.)
Then you can ask your questions of the mandarins. By how could you? Where is their blog?
(What's the difference between Hiram F. and George W.? See any? Both have their legions of supporters insisting how talented they are.
In fact they're both pure products of American money, which is corrupting this society. They're examples of total hierarchy, of the ever-widening gulf between rich and poor in this country (as we see a semi-permanent class of "guest worker" slaves about to be created, the tenuous economic existence of the working class and middle class destroyed as this occurs. This is reality.)
We may have to endure aristocrats in the political realm. We don't have to with our literature, and we won't.
The ULA is the new, democratic alternative. We welcome all who wish to rescue literature to join the fight. (Backbones required.)

True that said...

My point about all this poison-spewing destroying your reasoning seems to be bourne out by the fact that none of you can comprehend a very simple fact. I hate the assholes at Columbia just as much as I hate you dumbfucks. Your us-against-them mentality keeps you from imagining that there's anyone who's not on one side or the other. It keeps you from seeing that you're exactly the same as them. I'd post on their blog if they had one, and when King makes good on his threats to cut me off, the last remaining difference between you and them will be gone.

Now, only an absolute bitch would compare a guy who writes novels (Moody) to george bush. bush is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of people, bankrupting this country, and losing one of its most important cities. There King's as moronic as Smerdyakov comparing the ULA to Nat Turner's rebellion. It's meaningless, first of all, and it diminshes the serious crimes perpetrated by the administration.

But why would the supposedly "outward looking" ULA care about actual crimes when they can fixate on the imaginary injustices perpetrated against them. Talk about interiority. Potter's post has about as much to do with what the ULA actually does as King's view of the world has with the way the world actually works. You can make all the claims you want for all the actions you guys take, Jeff, you can even put it in all caps, baby, but the ULA is the cesspool you see right here.

I would be tempted to say that the person Moody most resembles is King, but Moody actually writes books. And that Moody is less obsessed with Moody than King is.

And yes, exactly, most country and western was scorned by mainstream culture, but WHO GIVES A FUCK ABOUT MAINSTREAM CULTURE OTHER THAN YOU GUYS? This is my point exactly. They still made their music, the beats still wrote their books, and they were good enough and cagey enough to get enough of an audience to keep doing. They didn't go around begging for attention. They were smart and they were fun. They didn't repeat themselves ad infinitum, they didn't spread lies about other artists.

Now, you can call yourselves a the democratic alternative but saying don't make it so. I get a little suspicious at all of you claiming "We're not sheep".

Yes, King, "We're not sheep," Potter says.
"We're not sheep," echoes leopold.
"We're not sheep," chilly charly agrees.
"We're not sheep," Patrick adds.
"We're not sheep," King reassures the kids again.

But if it looks like a sheep and bleats like a sheep...

King said...

Are you a writer, "False"? You don't seem to know very much about the world in which you live.
Who cares about mainstream culture?
Last time I checked it was inescapable. One can't turn on any segment of media without being bombarded with it. Hundreds of TV shows and radio stations, thousands of glossy periodicals, tens of thousands of slickly packaged books-- and all of it produced by a handful of conglomerates!
Bush and Moody are both hothouse plants raised the same way; put forward as the best in their respective fields. In both cases it's a lie. You can't disagree with this, because you know it's true.
The ULA democratic? We have our own forum for internal discussions. There are quite a few disagreements! More contention-- by far-- than what can be found in the established lit-world.
The fact is that I've backed off my ideas, have compromised them, for the sake of the ULA, time after time. It comes with being part of a cooperative endeavor-- something which you'd never understand.
That you think there's no difference between ourselves and the mandarins of literature reveals your own cluelessness. You must live in a bubble.
I have upcoming a post arguing that our society is more conformist that the world the Beats came from. The differences between social groups now is far, far greater. This is why Hirm F. believes himself to be middle-class. After all, there's Bill Gates, compared to whom the Poster boy of Literary Corruption is a pauper.
Getting a little farther down the ladder and the differences become more apparent.
The ULA is fighting for a voice in this noisy society. You oppose this-- which puts you on the other side of us. Can you seriously argue that you're not? Neutral? Sure you are!
Yet you ignore the gigantic fact of privilege on one side of you, while scorning a handful of street poets and shit disturbers.
My, that gleaming tower of NOISE known as American culture is extremely loud. How do we, who come from the heartland mass of this country, make ourselves heard?
Do we give up our democratic right to be heard?
Do we close up shop and go home, and become anonymous apathetic ghosts like yourself?
Not much of a choice, is it?
By gathering our voices together in a group, we exercising our right to exist and to be heard. It's as simple as that.
By protesting the Fakes, we are going to have a lot of fun.
We've united our voices, sure. The first task of any rebellion is to survive-- as reactionary forces attack and attack and attack again, which has been the way throughout history.
Change is irresistible.
You've aligned yourself against change, against the unstoppable force of history, Ghost.
You know this, which is why you hide your true self.
You don't want to be caught on the losing side!
Bark away. Until you can put an identity next to your words you mean nothing.

King said...

The Demi-Puppet's inescapable contradiction.
he's opposed to us for two possible reasons.
1.) He believes literature today is fine and in no need of change.
2.) He agrees with change, but dislikes our tactics.
But if one is for change, ours is the only possible tactic.
Incrementalism has been tried again and again. It doesn't work.
Does he posit an alternative strategy which will work?
Maybe HIS strategy-- attacking the agents of change and otherwise existing as an anonymous unknown blip? Very effective!
This is the box he's put himself in. In fact he's not for change at all. And the quiet ship of American Lit floats on silently and uselessly as before.

Frank Wilford said...

I'm one out of the loop mutha but don't forgive me. Gonna read up on this ULA business but I ain't got time for the rants. Too much to do like actually living it and then writing about it. Beat? How about ole Joe Knight down at Kentucky State Penitentiary doing life without but with the greatest poetry. Ya know it is real reading when you have to keep looking over your shoulder.I wonder if the folks at the New Yorker ever had to stop reading to make sure the blood got mopped off the floor? At least our violence was always nice.

King said...

There's a zeenster prisoner in the Northwest named Cassidy Wheeler that the ULA's Bill Blackolive has been trying to help. This is a cause we'll be taking on after the Howl nonsense.

King said...

We can have an impact after we build a platform in this society-- a place on which to stand. We were halfway there a couple years ago. We're going after it again.
Re the Ghost.
The reason he is upset at us and not the aristocrats (somehow I don't picture him outside Miller Hall with a protest sign on his own) should be obvious.
It's tied into what the ULA is about.
We exist to bring contention and noise to the literary world!
That's a big part of our mission.
We're attempting (no mean feat) to wake literature up.
Can we do it?
I noticed on the archives of the old zine newsgroup the way posts spiked up dramatically whenever we stirred things up.
Contention works.
We're here to bring it to the somnolent literary world.
We may bring it again to New York City, the center of media empire.
we may bring it to the very steps of Miller Hall itself! (Need bus money first.)
The Ghost will have a lot more to be resentful and fearful about.
Anyone want to make some literary history?
Let's do it!
(The Ghost has so stirred me up I feel like taking action-- which the ULA hasn't done in years.
Thanks, Ghost!)
Stay tuned.

King said...

Hey Ghost-- if Poster Boy and his friends won't read against us at Miller Hall, then maybe we'll read against you! Are you up to it?
I seem to recall a tape of you reading which exists someplace. (Maybe Charlie has heard it.)
Excuse me for saying it, but you're not very good.
The quality of the recording, I guess. Same thing happened to John Gilbert.
Let's read outside at Columbia and find out for sure!
The best way to find the inheritors of the Beats is to READ out loud!
(A short story: back in 2004 I was attending poetry readings as an observer; content not to get up there; hardly the egomaniac I'm alleged to be at all. Then someone castigated me as "not a poet." I wrote some new poetry-- hadn't done so in years-- and attended a few open mics attended by the city's "best"-- mopped the floor with most of them. Some, like the Sufi poet, have never forgiven me for upstaging them.)
Start practicing, Ghost. Maybe you can improve.

True that said...

Well, that "short story" certainly proves you're not an egomanic. I mean, if you can actually sit through a whole reading without getting on stage even once...

But finally, someone talks about some actual literature! Thanks Frank, whoever you are. Anyplace I can find Joe Knight's work?

As for King's sophistry about "fighting for a voice" and "waking up literature," it sounds good, but what exactly does that even mean? You can write, you can share your work. You're not voiceless unless the only voice that matters is that of the NY Times and Columbia University. That's how you're exactly like the monied fuckers - you agree that DIY voices don't matter, that they're essentially voiceless. You argue that you're disenfranchised just because you don't get mainstream press.

Again, real writers don't give a fuck about the organs of institutional culture. Only the ULA and MFA assholes do. The real work of art goes on outside the center. But you're so busy begging to be let into the fancy gates and being pissed off that they won't let you that there's no room left to talk about all the good work that's being done.

Who are you trying to wake up, you idiot? Tenured professors? Good luck. If you'd just wake up yourself and stop whining about people who don't care about you maybe you'd see stuff worth seeing. And you'd stop wasting your time. And everyone else's.

And it's absolutely impossible that you've ever heard me read, you moron. But have fun at Columbia. Like I said, I hope all you shitheads destroy each other.

- Leopold said...

Sorry to digress from attempts at an actual debate, but TT, you are an absolute nutjob flying wild off the handle.

Any effort you made at the beginning to appear like you had some political vision upon which you stood has crumbled as your arguments swing from one side to the other, whatever you think is the opposite of what we're arguing. It seems you put yourself in the center and everything outside of yourself is useless, unworthy. You're better than the MFAs, you're better than the ULAs, only you have the ability to call 'real literature.' It's a handy pedastal to stand on, you don't need any reasoned argument when the center of your worldview is you. As long as it supports you, it is a valid argument.

Even your attepts to disguise your identiy are now unravelling. Earlier on in the post you accused us of spewing hate for remarks like 'careerist bureaucrats' yet now finish your posts with 'I hope all you shitheads destroy each other.'

We're trying to discuss a change to literature here. You don't have to agree with us, but some stable, coherent criticism is what we ask for and deserve.

True that said...

What you deserve is a punch in the nuts. I never claimed to be against calling names. If you remember, I began by calling King a jerk. Because he's a jerk. I simply pointed out that namecalling is all the ULA does. Because it's true.

You're the one, specifically, who came out conveniently against my ad hominem attacks, although you remained curiously silent when your King was slinging mud at those poets. Some character you've got, leo.

And fine, I'm a nutjob. Nuttier than all you supposed wildmen roaming the literary veldt, coincidentally in lockstep (though I'm assured that, behind closed doors things are positively unruly! Best keep that hidden from prying eyes, you true adherents of loud, unruly debate).

I call a fool a fool. And it so happens that Columbia and the ULA are full of fools. Except that the ULA is worse in that they're endlessly prattling on about how they're doing everyone else a favor. Only you think that by criticizing MFAers and ULAers alike I thereby criticize "everything outside of myself".

What I know and you don't is that there is more "outside of myself" than the ULA and Columbia University, you stupid fucknut!! There's a whole fucking world of people making art! Awesome CDs and books and paintings!

But you guys, except for this new Frank character, don't want to talk about that. You want to talk about how much you're oppressed by people whose work has garnered an audience of enthusiasts. Or, now, you all seem to want to talk about my twisted personality. Fine. But try a little harder to keep up. Some of us nutjobs are really fucking smart and I'm getting tired of explaining this shit over and over and over to people who can't imagine that there are more than two simple viewpoints from which to see the world.

Wake up, leopold. Grow some balls and start thinking for yourself. It's really fucking fun.

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Ricky Joe Sanchez said...

Howdy to "True That"...ole Frank Wilford here...formerly the World's Greatest Prison Recreation Leader at the Kentucky State Pen. Enough about me. Joe Knight's work has never been published (as of 2002 anyway)and that is the criminal part! When I held the Prison Poetry Contest and read Joe's work for the first time I was ashamed to call myself an underground writer. Respectful of Joe, I never took any of his work out of the institution. Since the prison administration made me sign a "code of ethics paper" it will be a few more months before I can contact Joe. However, you can write him and perhaps he will send you a sample. Here's the contact info. Inmate Joe Knight
225 Water Street
Kentucky State Penitentiary
Eddyville, KY 42038
Tell him the Rec. Leader that had the Prizin Poetry Contest referred you. It is the best I can do for both of you....for now. Let me say this, his work haunts. It has been 4 years since I read those living lines and my heart remembers how they made me feel. When a person can reach down and touch something that you carry in your mind and heart without benefit of paper...that's art!!!
That's tough! The Chief (rest his soul) told me that most of us, and he included himself, are "crackers" that we are the ones that slip through the cracks. Every so often one of us scrapes the morning star and makes it.

Jeff Potter said...

Frank, thanks for joining the noise and tossing in your tip and two bits. Good artists who can deal with the real world without giving up on folks---that's who we're after.

As for T.:

*We don't care that you hate us or anyone else. How could that matter? You're irrelevant.

*Cesspool? I don't see anyone here going low but you.

*I don't know how the ULA works? That's weird, since I've been part of most of our projects.

*We ignore indy media and don't promote as much talent as we can? Really weird. We cover the whole gamut and want to bust the best of the underground beyond its current ghetto.

*What's all this about you being smart? What could you mean? Have you ever done or said anything that mattered? Talk about 4th-grade. Whew.

*Yet you declare our strategic protest to be childish and supposedly aimed at profs. Whew again.

Now that we have that all straight...

T, why don't you come up with something of substance: What you think should be done. Writers you like. Hopefuls you've discovered. Links to your own work. Or go home. It's only basic netiquette, kid.

Like Frank: he says what he knows, relates what he did and what he learned from it. Yeah!

Ricky Joe Sanchez said...

King, looking forward to the Wheeler/ Blackolive bit.

Thanks, Potter.

Jeff Potter said...

We have to be careful to avoid vampires and energy-suckers. King mentions this risk. Netiquette puts it more simply: ignore the trolls.

Our position is clear in our projects, websites, posts. New people aren't dummies---they quickly find our info and see what we're up to. Our momentum keeps growing as people catch on.

We have to remember that these are fake allegations. We answered them with our first action. I sometimes think that responding to a troll is a chance to explain our project in case new people are looking in. That can be OK, if done briefly. I get carried away. It's no real opportunity. Mop up, move on.

If someone who's sincere has a question, great. We see plenty of real challenges, suggestions, obstacles and opportunities.

Like Frank---he wants to see more---great!

But ignore the trolls.

Jeff Potter said...

The upcoming ULA public reading and challenge on the steps in front of a phony event is a perfect media op. It sends a message to the general public about what we stand for. It's a message anyone can relate to. It opens up the impact and appeal of literature.

It's the public liberation of a captive undergrounder: cool.

We're not a fringe group protesting the mainstream. We're regular people exposing and thus liberating the greatest artform from the grip of elites and giving it back to the public.

The win is a no-brainer. As King says: Who wants to be part of history? Just show up! It's fun stuff. Sure, we swing and miss here, but our average is good. We've had some amazing hits. Anyone in our cause who swings a few times is going to connect. I tell ya, it was rich indeed defending the cause from the anonymous, paranoid lies on Amazon that one time: and having the nutty liar exposed as Dave Eggers. The more we do the more the public will get the sense that there's more to literature than the chic, neurotic ghetto being presented.

It's up for grabs as to who best exploits our openings. We'll try to keep our own momentum building. But even the Fancy Lads could wake up and start looking beyond their walls for bigger, bolder talent.

chilly charlie said...

As of last June, the real Frank Wilford's email address was That comes from an online message board, and you can google it up yourself. It's not something that was just cooked up.

Why doesn't the ULA leadership write him and verify that he wrote the above postings. If not, someone has committed identity theft.

This is my last posting here, and I apologize for remaining anonymous. But "someone" is setting you up, and you ought to check it out. Farewell and best of luck, Charles.

Ricky Joe Sanchez said...

Right now I'm lookin' for Nipsy Russell or Kitty Carlise...I AM the REAL Frank Wilford. It's on my birth certificate and ever thang! I've never had an aol email address. What have I done to set anyone or anything up and what is this Chilly cat smoking? My email address IS How did I steal my own identity? That's a good one! Yep, google me, oh and try ole yahoo too. You'll see me. One hit is a court document from the Commonwealth of Kentucky where I got in a prison fight with Duane Harper-certified psycho. There is also a line of my mine that Ken Babb's put up when Chief under Prankster History Project or something like that...anyhoo, to: anyone who give a rip van winkle can check me out, be my guest. You can write me too. My email addy is here for all to see. So Chilly, why don't ya write me yerself? I love you, man....first time I have ever been accused of stealing myself! Didn't know I was worth having....hee hee hee ha ha har dee har har har har har! I'll go ya'll one better.....if everybody can chip in a few bucks for gas expenses (just out of a job) I will gladly make the trip from here in Kuttawa, Kentucky to ole New Yark and show up for that reading on the steps at Columbia on the 17th. get an envelope and do it! Write:
The Real Frank Wilford
P.O. Box 454
Kuttawa, KY 42055

Now my dears, that is honesty. No Mr. Chilly Charlie or Ms. Annie Moose...just ole Frank. Thanks for playing with me, ah hee hee hee!

Ricky Joe Sanchez said...

Let me be Frank...I can be...because I AM !!!!!

hee hee ho hoddle le ha ha ha!

Ricky Joe Sanchez said...

And how about yer Chilly Charlie giving out email addresses and giving advice? Who are you...the Shell Answer Man (circa late 70's TV)? hee haw hee haw ,!!! oh boy my boy....I'm figgerin' this King fella can take care of things anyway...don't fret.

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